Originally dedicated to fighting the proposed merger of the ICAEW with CIMA and CIPFA, this site now provides news about the ICAEW

Do you think the ICAEW rebranding was money well spent?

Friday, February 24, 2006

Counter Points

Martin Waller, of The Times, has written a short and pithy piece about the name change and merger issues in today's edition.

Visit Counter Points, and scroll down to read it.


  1. I couldn't call Eric any kind of counter. He cannot do mental arithmetic with accuracy(and he is lower than a bean counter, he's a has been non-counter).

    He has failed on all important counts.

  2. AA (today 2/3/06) has a letter "Forward with Anstee" from Mr Tiplady.

    Eric A is a poor excuse for a man (being without honour). So who else wants to Tip Lady Erica ?

  3. Should that be "ditch" rather than "tip"?

  4. AA(again 2-3-2006) "ICAEW TURNS TO CPD". Mr Madden says to help ACCA, CIMA and CIPFA with a better quality examination (case study based) if their members have at least five years' experience.

    I'm maddened - Mr Madden and the ICAEW (and especially Erica) are unhinged - if they could get three new takers a year it would be a miracle.

    Will it take 5 new staff at huge cost implement this folly that does nothing for ICAEW members?

  5. Re: new exam - it takes two ICAEW members -just qualified or not and with or without a clean disciplinary record- to sponsor an experienced ACCA, CIMA or CIPFA member to sit this exam.

    Great strategy. Overwhelming brilliance. What else can one say?

  6. IFA. Out of sight. Out of mind.

  7. ICAEW should concentrate its efforts in co-operation with international accounting bodies especially the G4 + 1 including CICA, ICAA, ICANZ and AICPA rather than merging with any one of CCAB.

  8. There is no way the ICAS will merge with ICAEW. They are too arrogant and will not dilute their brand.

  9. You are right to think that ICAS will not mergre with ICAEW. They are right not to wish to merge with fools.

    ICAEW should delelete mergers and affiliations from their agenda as support now will be less than last year.

    Further antagonisation of its membership will only extend contempt to yet more ICAEW members.

  10. So finally ICAEW was forced to open its doors to ACCA and CIMA members!! If the events in the last couple of years are anything to go by ICAEW has proved that its organic growth plans have failed.

  11. Is was not "forced to". It was just another "stupid decision".

    What does Ken, Kamran, Jeff etc think?

  12. ICAEW need the merger to fund their pension deficit. They are not doing it for the good of the profession.

  13. Yes partly that - but they do not like the success of ACCA, CIMA and ICAS in expanding.

    It is by far desirable to be the best, or thereabouts, than to be the biggest. ACCA and CIMA have second rate examinations and abound with registered students with second rate minds.

  14. Crisp accepts faults but not so Erica.

  15. CIPFA - brilliant beyond belief.

    AS is Eric.

  16. What do you mean by second rate examinations and registered students with second rate minds?

    I don’t think ACCA and CIMA students are second rate but they just choose a qualification route different to ICAEW!

    If ACCA and CIMA exams and students are second rate then ICAEW students and council members and chief executive are all ninth rated. IFA should be second rate and ICAEW who wish to bring IFA into its umbrella are third rated.

  17. The CEO and collectively the Council of ICAEW do not even deserve a rating.

    ICAEW, ACCA and CIMA are sub-standard (this was not always thus)and IFA are somewhat lower.

  18. David Howells with "unlimited" funds and media manipulation you lost. Eric lost. ICAEW council lost.

    If there is another merger-type vote there is now NO chance it could succeed. Perhaps Labroke will quote odds on a range of outcomes?

    Ken - are you still there?

  19. Of course I'm still here.

  20. ACCA, CIPFA and CIMA members could now be qualified as ACA with ICAEW.

    See your home insitutes news.

    The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (ICAEW) today launched an initiative to enable members of the ACCA, CIMA and CIPFA to qualify for membership provided they have at least five years of professional experience and pass an entrance examination equivalent to the advanced case study set for ACA finalists.
    Commenting at the launch of the initiative, Executive Director of Learning and Professional Development, Dr Raymond Madden said:
    “Pathways to membership will enable members of the profession who have built the requisite level of expertise to become members of the Institute provided that they can demonstrate the required level of analysis, technical understanding and professional judgement required to become an ACA.
    “It is aimed at high calibre professionals who may have qualified through one of the other CCAB bodies but want to take advantage of our rigorous programme of Continuing Professional Development (CPD) as well as the full level of technical representation, advice and support the Institute has to offer.”
    Dr Madden continued:
    “The Institute already operates an exemptions system which enables members of these other bodies to qualify as an ACA without having to duplicate qualifications already passed. Pathways will streamline this process by enabling potential applicants to demonstrate their suitability through a combination of professional experience and examination.
    “Successful applicants will benefit from the full range of support services the Institute offers including a structured programme of CPD which sets the benchmark for the profession.”
    As well as passing the examination and demonstrating the requisite levels of professional expertise and experience applicants will require two existing ICAEW members to sponsor them. They will also need to have been a member of their existing Institute for at least five years, be able to demonstrate full compliance with the CPD requirements of that Institute and have a clean disciplinary record.
    – ENDS –

    Which body is then sub-standard?

    All HKICPA/ACCA/CIMA/CIPFA and perhaps IFA members are eligible to become ICAEW members; so everybody is ACA though.

  21. Members of ACCA, CIMA and CIPFA simply need to complete a form, give a detailed CV and more importantly money and they become full members of ICAEW.

  22. Thank god I am a US CPA. Up to the present moment only those successfully passed the US uniform CPA examinations administered by AICPA could be eligible to apply for CPA license in various State Board of Accountancy and become general member of AICPA, no exception!

    I am pleased to see AICPA and US State Board of Accountancy doing its best work in maintaining the gold standard of US CPA designation rather than the crap standard of ICAEW.

    I think even if POBA in UK agree to recognise the US CPA certification there isn’t any hope that US International Qualification Assessment Board will evaluate ACA qualification conferred by ICAEW as equivalent to US CPA.

  23. Of course the new exam for ACCA, CIMA and CIPFA should go ahead.

    Dr Madden should merely raise the pass mark to 90% or require 19,322 ICAEW sponsors.

    Alternatively, he could lower the pass mark to 0%, forget the sponsors and have a small entry fee.

  24. As far as I can see, the exam is simply a story written in the candidates own time about what they do at work (although there is no requirement to draw a picture as well).

    The entrance fee is about £750.

  25. Here is the link to an Accountancy Age Article on the Open Door invitation to ACCA, CIMA and CIPFA members


  26. Sorry, try this instead


  27. The strategies of ICAEW are becoming more ridiculous every day!

    I decide to quit the rotten body of accountant!

  28. ICAEW should do away with the Examination of Experience for recognised RQB members and Irish CPA members. RQB/ICPAI are considered equal. Members considered equal should be allowed direct admission without any conditions attached.

    Examination of Experience should only apply to CIMA members who have not attempted RQB recognised auditing papers or CIPFA members who completed their exams before 8 June 2005.

    If you were to surf ICAEW website on CCAB, you will find that ACCA's syllabus justify the completion of ICAEW's syllabus. Thus, any other exams equal to ACCA such as the Irish CPA should be allowed direct entry to ACA.

  29. We have readers from the accountingweb site suggesting AIA members to be allowed to be admitted to ACA membership in view of the fact that their CEO has claimed the AIA and ICAEW as equals.

    If this is approved, I bet you 99% of AIA members will cross over to ACA membership and these 99% members of AIA will then gain worldwide recognition.

    Those AIA members in Malaysia who are admitted direct to ACA membership will resign as ACA is a recognised scheduled qualification by the Malaysian Institute of Accountants.

    Can ICAEW help out the AIA members?

    Hope so.

  30. Ruselloh Antonio in the accountingweb thread "What Chance of 2007 ICAEW/CIPFA Merger Working?" asked if CIPFA members should wait till 2007 for the merger with ICAEW or write the Examination of Experience now.

    Let's hear the learned advice from members of this fraternity.

  31. Irish CPA and ICAI failed in their 2004 merger.

    Since the ICAEW is eager to merge in view of the thread posed by ACCA's world-wider expansion, I strongly urged ICAEW to admit direct to its ACA membership all Irish CPA members without any conditions.

    I am sure Irish CPA members will not drop their CPA membership upon their admission to ACA membership because Irish CPA CEO is a capable competent CEO always doing something for its members and is proactive. He coordinates his CPA organisation very well.

    I hope to become one ACA very soon and I look forward to that eagerly.

  32. How come IFA and ICAEW merger discussion was called off?

    I bet it must be due to my learned professional advice I once posted in the accountingweb threads commenting that the quality of AIA members shall get diluted should the merger between AIA and IFA pulls through.

    ICAEW must have learned from my advice on the dilution of quality members in my strong comment on AIA's move to merge with IFA or absorb IFA members direct without further examinations.

    Thank me, thank me, ICAEW.

  33. Which is greater and more prestigious - ACCA or ICAEW?

    If ICAEW allows ACCA members direct admission to ICAEW, and many cross-over, this shall prove the point that ICAEW is considered by ACCA members to be more prestigious than ACCA itself.

    But ICAEW must remove the Examination of Experience it now impose on ACCA, as ACCA has fully fulfilled all the exam paper requirements of the ICAEW - ref ICAEW website on CCAB members planning to obtain ACA membership.

  34. The ACCA, CIMA and CIPFA have become feeder institutes for the ICAEW as ACCA, CIMA and CIPFA have been recognised as equal to ICAEW.

    ICAEW will now have access to worldwide base of accountants.

    This is excellent strategy for beleaguered Institute.

  35. Ken,

    Can you please explain to me/us why, apparently, there is a proposal that CIMA and CIPFA members with at least 5 years PQE can sit an exam to become ICAEW members; whereas ALL their members, without further examination, were invited to merge and become members of THE INSTITUTE OF CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS?

    It seems to me that Eric has effectively admtted that the merger would have DILUTED THE ICAEW BRAND.

  36. Jason , 11-Mar-2006 [Edit] [Remove]
    All Bodies of Accountants could become ICAEW Member
    No worries, I am sure AIA and CPA(Ireland) will be incorporated into the next round of membership expansion plan of ICAEW. Then, everybody will become ACA with ICAEW…………………….lateron ACA designation not even worth a penny!
    ICAEW will be the mass body of accountants in UK and Europe in term of membership but not quality. It is the lowest in term of quality among global accounting institutes, definitely lower than AIA and ICEA or IFA.

  37. ICAEW is and will remain the gold standard accountancy qualification.

    The Examination of Experience will ensure that only the cream of other Institutes will be allowed to describe themselves as Chartered Accountants and carry the ACA designation.

    I welcome all eminent accountants to ICAEW membership.

  38. Jason

    This open door strategy to all CCAB to join ICAEW as member is in effect a disguised Merger with the sole purpose of eliminate all competitors!

    What a clever manoeuvre!

  39. What ICAEW chief executive has done is just a money grapping exercise without any improvements in professional standing of the accounting profession in UK.

    It could only disrepute the professions and the body itself.

  40. The only reason why CCAB Members will join ICAEW via this route will be to gain access to the excellent CPD scheme offered by the Institute.

    Face it, there is no other reason why a qualified accountant would want to join ICAEW.

  41. Merging of like bodies is good. In fact I would like to see one Management accounting body, and one CPA/CA body in the world. Everyone around the world writes the same exam except local laws and tax.

    Here is why...
    1)Most are now adapting the IFRS which means are studing the same syllabus.
    2)Portability of designation around the world. No need for MRA, RMA, or whatever you want to call it.

    I like to see IFAC take the lead and discuss about merging of all bodies.

  42. Ken,

    Isn't all these meant to "START the MERGER" rather than "stop the merger"???

    Look at those "promotional statements" by readers here which clearly suggest to promulgate the idea of "MERGER" via ICAEW's strategy of absorbing members from CCAB bodies via Examination of Experience.

    Some readers even went to the extent of suggesting the doing away of Exam of Experience for RQBs, but apply it to non-RQBs only. And I agree with it. Do you like me then, for saying this, Ken?

    I am getting popular with my remarks, aren't I?

    Yes, I am!

  43. Ken,

    I am John Himmler who wrote that message preceding this.

    Thank You.

    Popular man,
    John Himmler, who wrote in accountingweb.com too.

  44. START the MRA process!

    Begin with ICAEW offering direct membership to all RSB bodies members in the UK and Irish CPA.

    The second phase shall be the same offer extended to RQB bodies' members. This has to be done on a case to case basis as I understand there are members admitted to membership prior to getting the RQB status. Also, avoid admitting any members of RQB admitted by direct admission who are not holding any recognised professional accountancy qualifications such as CCABs. "Recognised" qualifications shall include Irish CPA, CCABs (except CIMA).

    It is strange CIMA members are invited to join ACA membership via the Examination of Experience. Will this dilute the membership quality of ICAEW?

    Readers has quoted that AIA's absorption of IFA members will dilute the quality of AIA members via AIA RQB examinations.

    CIMA is not a RQB.

    Having said that!, I suggest the second stage, "START the MERGER process".

    With members of Irish CPA, and CCAB admitted to ICAEW, ICAEW's merging exercise with Irish CPA and CCAB will be made easy....very much easy, or easier.

    Great strategy by ICAEW. I hope to be FCA very soon then.

    I think Ken may not like me too, John Himmler, for promulgating the merging idea.

    Who cares! As long as I am FCA, I am satisfied, then I will fight vehemently to stop CIMA members from being admitted to become ACA members because CIMA does not have RQB recognised audit papers.

  45. Any complaints by AIA members for not being invited to join ACA members when it was said the AIA and ICAEW are equal?

  46. I am very jeoulous indeed, as AIA member, because since 1994, I heard that the alumni association of International Accountants of the Malaysian branch said they have applied for recognition to be scheduled into the Accountant's Act of Malaysia and till now, they are still pursuing the recognition.

    Is this acceptable or a long much delayed issue?

    If ICAEW offers me ACA membership, I shall certainly grab it without even considering further as ACA of ICAEW leads me to membership of the Malaysian Institute of Accountants (MIA), something I longed to get. I am not interested in things other than MIA membership and "recognition" as approved company auditor means nothing to me and the majority AIA members in Malaysia aren't in audit field as AIA was never recognised since.

  47. Indeed this news is excellent.

    Ever since being young child I dreamed to be Chartered Accountant, but I never had opportunity. I became ACCA instead.

    Now I have opportunity and my dream will be reality.

    Long live excellent work of ICAEW council.

  48. This is addressed to the contributor of the precedent posting.

    As a very jeoulous AIA member due to ICAEW's offer to ACCA members (which readers now highly strongly recommend direct membership without Examination of Experience), can you advise me which route is best to choose :

    1) drop AIA membership completely and join ACCA studentship right away. In this case, I need to write ACCA's 14 paper exams but my knowledge from AIA course is equivalent to ICAEW's standard and armed with such high standard competent knowledge, I should not have any problems in passing ACCA exams and I should pass easily.

    2) drop AIA membership completely and join ICAEW as student member, hoping ICAEW will accept me and I attend approved ICAEW course while working very hard with one of ICAEW approved training institutions. I know I should be able to pass the ICAEW exams easily as I am armed with a broad-based accountancy knowledge nothing lower than ICAEW's standard.

    My aim is to be a FCA in the quickest possible route. The level of difficulty in any examination standards is never a problem.

    Thank You in advance for reading and helping me out.

  49. Tips from me :

    AIA to AAT = some exemptions.

    Pass AAT examination, then go through ICAEW's Fast Track route.

    Tell me what you think.

  50. I got very good idea now.

    All members of professional bodies, please go through AAT examinations, then go through ICAEW Fast Track route, you graduate as ACA in fastest possible route.

    Enjoy studying, enjoy taking exam, enjoy passing, enjoy FCA status.

  51. I got even better of the best ideas.

    I am going to be the pioneer founder of the Institute of Chartered Accountants. My policy admits all members not recognised, but I give them training and workshops to update and upgrade their knowledge.

    I will seek to negotiate MRA with all CA bodies. Once negotiated, I will give up my founder pioneer status and give way easily to that CA body to merge with mine.

    I am flexible and easy to get along with, so don't worry about resistance.

    This way, it is even simpler towards a globalised body of CA.

  52. Dear All,

    Does everyone know if ICAEW Eric concurred to Jason's postings in the accountingweb.com?

    Read "Jason , 11-Mar-2006
    All Bodies of Accountants could become ICAEW Member
    No worries, I am sure AIA and CPA(Ireland) will be incorporated into the next round of membership expansion plan of ICAEW. Then, everybody will become ACA with ICAEW…………………….lateron ACA designation not even worth a penny!
    ICAEW will be the mass body of accountants in UK and Europe in term of membership but not quality. It is the lowest in term of quality among global accounting institutes, definitely lower than AIA and ICEA or IFA."

    So, Ken Frost, lots and lots of people want to join ICAEW to make it a champion body of chartered accountants in this world.

    Can everyone let us have your reply from ICAEW, that is why Jason inform us so informatively in the accountingweb.com.

    Cheers, my IFA friends will soon get to become FCA very soon.

    Cheers to all,
    John Himmler

  53. Dear Everybody,

    If all accounting bodies' members get to be ICAEW members as ACA/FCA, then there is no competitors, and no complaints of no recognition and everyone in Malaysia get to become FCA and MIA members. So easy.

    "Dilution?"???, no worry and don't worry, till then the united body of accountants will receive no complaints or problems because everyone belong to the same accountancy body.

    Everything resolved and solved.


  54. Everyone reading this blog - the message is Start The Merger, and looks like not Stop The Merger.

  55. 'Start The Merger' .... with AIA then; see http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=142412.

    Noted the postings that we should look at :

    "Another AIA Member , 27 June 2005
    Employ AIA members
    No AIA member I heard of is sued over their audit practice work. It goes without saying, EMPLOY AIA MEMBERS.

    AIA Member , 23 June 2005
    Try AIA graduates then
    Try hiring AIA members then. If it is true that not many AIA graduates are found in Big 4?
    So, give AIA members a try and see their performance. Maybe, they 'could do better' like what Sir John Bourn says in the header of this thread."

    So to CONCLUDE that the AIA is a body worth to merge with ICAEW, ain't I right?